Youre not alone elastigirl, theres no way I could watch it either. Its not some future harm. Give yourself time, and dont allow others to place their expectations upon you. And what is love? Conversational-type sermons, contemporary worship music, come-as-you-are. If I read this right, Guidepost will stay quiet when the SBC gets upset? So instead of trying to defend these rascals, I prefer to inform and warn the church about the wolves in their midst rather than giving them a break. He is best known as the creator, director and co-writer of The Chosen, the first multi-season series about the life of Jesus of Nazareth. Also, we must note who it is that the elders have authority over. All who have enriched themselves in the name of serving God and on the backs of the working people are suspect, as that is certainly not what we were called to, nor a reflection of the sacrificial love of Jesus who came to serve. These charlatans cannot be allowed to get away with this. not greedy for money This in spite of the fact that our family was the friendly face that attracted many, the ones who were always approachable, in a way that the cool, distant pastor could not be. No more baptism. This is called domestication. Dallas Jenkins: There is no believing without proof. 4107 N Steele Blvd, Fayetteville, AR, 72703, United States. And perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. Usually being replaced by a building program or a new strategic plan or a new school blah blah blah. James mocking his own flock with his outrageous private Cabo party to end all parties, with the $50,000 magician, wont go unanswered. What church does Dallas Jenkins attend? Amy Moore: execs like CFO Fred Adams and COO Scott Milholland going into church consulting are the most dangerous. The company typically gets sick and diessometimes quickly and sometimes suddenlybut it dies. As you might imagine, there have been thousands of additional actors . This disturbing senior pastor made fun of other HBC church leaders for their physical attributes that he deemed not up to snuff with his obvious sartorial sense and unsurpassed personal good looks. Nelson, Dallas Jenkins, Garrett Higbee, Trei Tatum, and Rick Donald. Greg Laurie Feb 27, 2023 Harvest Online Worship Resources Our online church worship resources are designed to help you know God deeper and engage with His word on a whole new level. . You are used to being in control of who sees what. If even one little thing God has brought me through can help someone else, I am exceeding glad. Shame on you. When I did my own looking into it I found dead ends, contradictions, and all kinds of other things that did not fit the protestant narative I was taught. My name is on all my posts and frankly I find your whining annoying. It is the internal nagging I have following Dees post on Friday about JD Hall and Braxton Caner. Plus there are several tombs of El Cid, the lost hero who saved Spain from the Muslim rulers in different cathedrals. Ken F (aka Tweed): LET EVERYONE REVERE THE DEACONS AS JESUS CHRIST, THE BISHOP AS THE IMAGE OF THE FATHER, AND THE PRESBYTERS AS THE SENATE OF GOD AND THE ASSEMBLY OF THE APOSTLES. If they couldnt get it right after three years of intensive time with Jesus, what chance do we have? I envision a paradigm shift in the way we do church in America. temperate The office of an elder is not to be taken lightly. Acts 20:17, Paul called the elders. 1 Peter 5:1, Peter exhorted the elders. It is never one individual who rules over the church, but a group of people, the elders. In 2012, after several decades of developing the worship culture at Harvest, the Vertical Church Band was born. Im not going to say that to you. GreekEpigraph: there is no mechanism at all for pew peons to do as you note and hold elders accountable for anything. Cool bands, espresso coffee, relevant sermons, fun and fellowship, etc, In the words of the Prophets Emerson, Lake, and Palmer: He sat there for years and participated when people were being bullied and abused, being screamed at by their pastor and boss to the point of tears, watching hundreds of thousands of dollars being spent profligately. But they do eventually turn. Time and again, examples in the Bible show light shinning in darkness. Sadly, many have not served well. Once credibility is lost, it is hard to regain. That, in my humble, fallible opinion, explains much of the evil that has taken place in this world. trust God and not your own self. THis man should never be in a position of authority again, and even less in one of spiritual authority (whatever that may mean). Thats it right there. What is the source? I share this for all who, like me, are overcome with new sadness, pain and loss amidst the HBC, Willow, Catholic church, ECFA, SBC, GFA, etc. You dont even need a Pastor/Dictator at the peak for things to go sour. Bill Hybels, miracle seeker-driven leader, stands credibly accused of sexual harassment and molestation. They have acted like they dont believe that with no fear of God but payday is coming someday when they stand before their Creator. Debby: Check out the Stronger Mens Conference Praise God for TWW and other watchblogs who do their best to get the word out on these guys, but you cant stop the spiritually illiterate from attending their exciting churches. I suspect, from many comments of those involved, that there was an actual mafia-like aspect of JMacs control. Conversational-type sermons, contemporary worship music, come-as-you-are. Harvest Bible Chapel has owned its mistakes and endured to become a happier and healthier church, whose members recently pledged financially, in their walk/work for Christ, and in their. Im a witness that almost everything you re reading and hearing is true.. There may be a general principle here, perhaps related to how many people you can know and relate to at a more than superficial level., And the cash flow in a church of 300 is not so large that it is likely to corrupt the leadership team.. And are angry. In the meantime, I dont rejoice over unworthy vessels carrying the precious Gospel of Christ. Leaders raging, even with kids; no one doing anything but continuing to pay. It is atrocious that he is still able to live the life and spend the money as if nothing untoward ever happened. If they couldnt get it right after three years of intensive time with Jesus, what chance do we have? That sadness is so deep. Yowzers, you have me stumped. This was a guy who was lauded before thousands each week on the stage, promoted on a national radio program, spread his influence through 18 books. His LLC scheme was dreamed up because James announced that no new debt would be taken on until the $43M in debt was paid off in full. My current frustration, as someone who wants to get it right, is not knowing how to get it right in light of all the historical evidence. To make up for their very tiny, um sense of self-esteem. Id call him a bottom feeder but I like lobster too much..So hes lower than that. I read an article yesterday about small mainstream churches driven to the wall by the migration to the megas being forced to lease their vacant during the week facilities to small businesses in order to generate enough income to keep the doors open. Ken F (aka Tweed):if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. That brings back a memory I havent thought about for years. You and the other TWW regulars feel like family. If it werent for the subject matter, it would have been rated X (violence) and denounced by Christians as Violence/Torture porn. Thank you John for your honesty and insight into elder selection at HBC. Only if this does not work are you to turn him away as a unbeliever. HBC Youth Bible Study. I was in a back and forth with some supporters of another well-known abusive megachurch leader recently, and one of the fans of the leader assumed I was posting under a made-up name and then slammed me for my cowardice as being anonymous. Youre welcome. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? Harvest Christian Academy currently has more than 500 students, more than 60 staff members, and continues to move forward with a high leadership focus. And for keeping ones mouth shut on the way out? Both Steve Carter and Jenkins waited for public outcry and then expressed their moral outrage. Noevangelical, lets get a bunch of our favorite beverages, cheese, olives, chocolate, cigars and a candle and well continue on. Ken F (aka Tweed): Are we any better? . Every church leader should be good and honest. really, what im saying is i think we can hold Paul and his comments loosely, just as we hold what others say loosely. 7,646 were here. To do that you must have first hand knowledge and part of that fellowship in some fashion in order to be qualified to hold people accountable before God. where leaders humbly look around for those whom they can help, trying to be the last, not the first, putting their reputations, careers, and lives on the line if necessary I dont see the point in saying that you are a Christ-follower if you dont get to know Him through reading His Word. The key is to have a system where checks and balances are in place. The movie is being produced by Vertical Church Films, a new film-making branch of the Elgin-based megachurch Harvest Bible Chapel, with its estimated $2 million budget underwritten by the. The harm is already done. What do you make of Luke? This says you are not comfortable with God being in control, or believe he has the power to work in these earthly maters. Ishy: Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? but now that theyre all in different places, what does each mean now? Many are passionate about their cause, but it is far too often found to be a misplaced passion. Imagine the chaos if we all put our full names out there, along with the names of our (former) churches and the various miscreants, lay and ordained, living and dead, who assaulted and extorted us over the decades. That was 30 years ago and it proved to be true. Talk is cheap lets see some action. Im convinced that an antinomian spirit has taken control of some ministries, where church leaders feel they have been released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law. Ive read that the sweet spot in church size, that combines small enough to know the flock (and small enough that all the flock can know the leaders) and large enough to be endowed with a diverse array of gifts is around 300. And I have collaborated with Ryan and Jessica, among others, throughout this. "And at the same time, I'm doing a show about humans who are flawed people," he says. Its like a slow drip how the top dogs at HBC are resigning one by one! But you could change the future by using your failure for good. This is even more understandable in our world of online abuse. This will always happen, there is no way to avoid it. That was in response to PJ. Shes gone after him more than most. Walking in the light means not having to cover anything up and not belly aching when God Himself is the one shouting truth and revealing things from His Mountaintop. At this point however the narrative cannot be controlled by people because God Almighty is acting now. If Paul was out of line, then certainly Luke was to blame for not exposing the sham. the powerbrokers have manipulated everyone to heavily invest their finances, their time, energy, their relationships, and their own life in the institution. I do sometimes wonder if we read the same Bible. None of the Synoptic gospels have that same setup. Remove the plank so the splinter can be clearly seen. In our services, our ministries, our music-in everything we do at Harvest, our passion and focus are to bring God glory through His Son Jesus Christ. of good testimony with those who are outside (non-Christian) It doesnt even look vibrant anymore. They are increasing in excellence in academics and athletics, and all that God has in store for the next chapter. you mention they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff?. All that we could come up with was that we, and they, were faithful and generous givers and attenders of the mens bible study. Amy Moore: Truth the WHOLE truth is the only antidote More leaders must take a stand and shine the light of truth. True. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Most of those Ive heard and experienced who tout elder-rule polity will say that this passage says anything but pew peons having any say in elder or pastor selection and/or accountability. The Story of Alleged Abuse at Sankey Orphanage in the Philippines and Its Relationship to Christ Community Chapel, Tom Randall, and Joe Coffey, Former Harvest Bible Chapel Members Want $72,000 In Donations Refunded, After Pastor James MacDonaldFired, https://swbts.edu/news/releases/game-banquet-uses-hunting-venue-spread-gospel/, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSTe9uit48, http://churchbuildingministry.org/who-we-are/, https://duckduckgo.com/?q=the+chosen+producers+james+macdonald&t=ffsb&ia=web, http://www.wsop.com/players/profile/?playerid=72494, http://www.globalpokerindex.com/poker-players/frederick-adams-169223/, https://classroom.synonym.com/the-role-of-the-clergy-in-the-greek-orthodox-church-12087637.html, https://www.archbalt.org/clergy-personnel-division/bishops-priests-deacons/. Even during confusion, never-ending drama, attacks and Why is any pastor allowed to act like this? Max: ex HCA Staff: Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain. The churches have become the world. I dont think so. The following is an extract from LookinguntoJesus.net, Presbuterous, Episkopos & Poimen Finally, you deactivated your Twitter account a week ago. FOR WITHOUT THEM ONE CANNOT SPEAK OF THE CHURCH. Peter wrote, Shepherd the flock of God which is among you Paul said, take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers The number of bishops is always plural, but the jurisdiction of these overseers is singular. Who knows? Every weekend we open the word of God and study the truth He has revealed to us. I guess Dallas understands the power of the written word on the internet. and purportedly, eternity depends on each individual institution and the collective one. Id only add that the scar and damage to my faith as a result of Harvest is real, deeply painful, and permanent. As God himself never forces anyone to believe in him, or acknowledge the Truth, we cannot expect to be able to persuade others to see what, to us, seems so obvious. My understanding is that Driscoll also consulted with Gateway. (Dee). Youre barking your wares to a wised-up crowd, and unlikely to terrify many here. And I know that we are falling far short of appropriating the spiritual resources available to us as Christians to make a difference in this world not with what we think, but what we know. Backfired twice over. hard for me to imagine a job description for this that commands a big salary, let alone a modest salary. I will reflect on your honesty and embrace the possibilities. I do not believe this is an endorsement of P&P, but I do believe this shows fear. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. (Ephesians 5:11). Truth is real. We have seen God continue to change lives through the people and ministries of our church. And I doubt it was simply losing their job, as many of them voluntarily left. able to teach husband of one wife I just found out about it a few minutes ago. I spent many hours with James MacDonald at church, in his home, at Camp Harvest, and on other retreats. Like it or not thats whats happening. If you had anything, Dallas, youd have shared it. The first service in this new house of God was held on September 10, 1995. The Evangelical Bubble proclaimed it a Witnessing Tool (as if that was the only reason for anything) and then bought out so many showings a lot of the theaters had to discontinue group tickets. Dallas, maybe you should read the red letter Bible the T. Jefferson compiled from the King James Version? You could cold feet and released a scaled-back version instead. You couldnt care if the pastor lives in a 4 million dollar mansion. Then when it all comes to an angry pus-filled head and finally pops because the infection is so deep, he decides that things have gone too far and he writes a letter (but a private letter) and gets angry when its shared as a means of supporting the people whove been trying to expose the abuse. There was something wrong with you if you didnt go with the whole church to see it. All our campuses gathered together for three consecutive Saturdays of the summer Ravinia style. into playing a role in a conspiracy they do not even grasp. Amen to all those who have written shame on you., roebuck: nobody goes there anymore its too crowded. Yogi Berra, Im surprised mega churches ever become crowded since You can observe a lot by just watching. -Yogi Berra. Im going to the training for it in a few weeks. You need to stop looking at yourself as a victim and a good guy and admit that you are the neo-Pharisee that you really are. Jeff Chalmers John: I was asked to consider serving on the elder board there three days before I leftand the topic of 1Tim 3 wasnt brought up. Didnt Dallas or is there another Jenkins son? Churchgoers in 21st century America are just too gullible to keep these folks out of the pulpit. Like livestock for slaughter so Pastor can eat mutton until he bursts like Mr Creosote. so you dont. a word for when you throw up a basket of fruit and everything settles in a different place, and youre confused because you understood each thing in relation to all the other things. One of my concerns with much of the Reformed world is their higher regard for doctrine and authority over the individual lost and needy soul. Harvest Christian Fellowship is a megachurch in Riverside, California. Several decades is quite a long time for a good, biblical non-hierarchical to hold on. Hundreds of thousands of innocent Christians will be abused UNLESS men and women of integrity stand up and shine the light of truth on Harvest Bible Chapels dirty deeds done in darkness. People were dying for this faith from the very beginning, which suggests that it was not merely wishful thinking about some made up traditions. That included giving James $20K-$30K a MONTH to spend just on T&E. So thats just an opinion. We see it mentioned on a few occasions in Scripture where elders were appointed in every city. If Dees afraid of Hall, she sure hasnt done a very good job of living it out. There are other places for the truly repentant to serve in the church. TS00: Zero current power holders at Willow Creek Community Church have uttered a single word condemning the sexual crimes of founder and 42 year leader Bill Hybels. I was really hoping I would find that this was a much later development. TS00: sometimes I feel pretty alone in this wilderness. They taught 200 pastors how to create a stronger choke-hold on their church so that no one can wrestle it away from them. wolves among the sheep, earning their money, Only a public attack and a loss of financial success would drive change at Harvest., Thank you, Fisher, for the encouragement. Someday Ill be big enough so you cant hit me Maybe you should have considered the consequences of your actions, or inaction, before you decided to hitch your wagon to JM. The time for half measures is over. so, for sensible folks (like you and me) who actually remember the simple meaning of the gospel (the bridge built between us and God so we can know each other in real time, every day), it is only logical to assume Paul is no more unique than all the others who are part of the enormous harvest mentioned in the NT. In fact, Driscolls board is down to him as President and director, Jimmy Evans and Randall Taylor (who I believe is an attorney). It is always, My friends are here, My kids depend on the youth group, or Who is going to bury me?. . In an interview with the Chicago Sun Times, Jenkins said, "We feel like if people can binge watch . Live with it. Every single person there loves Harvest so much that they cant leave?? You have not taken full responsibility for your actions. I appreciated your comment, John. Vague and almost never supported accusations, e.g., the posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the commentshere is always, in my experience, just a smear from someone whos actually rather cowardly and just looking to defame. Oh, they all say how sorry they are, and admit to one degree or another some of the faults of James MacDonald. If church leaders throughout Christendom wont take a stand to expose wayward peers and rebuke their ministry endeavors, it will be up to the pew to do this important task to inform and warn others in the Body of Christ to beware. "A letter campaign, led by former staff member Dallas Jenkins ( not his first ), which centered on HBC's Elgin Campus and took the illegal recording to Mancow, whom he boasted of controlling . maybe a z darn, its just the right word. TS00: I dont know, if one follows Twitter, there are several who have commented that attended church with JMac in his youth, and they have nothing positive to say about him or his character from way back. Not just then but through darker times which subsequently came (including our own trials with another Harvest outlet). Fred not only took out debt to fund new purchases, he took out additional debt on already encumbered buildings. Yep, thats the house on a private lake, Thompson said. This man has no shame. 5G, Closer Campaign. They all seem to be on display at HBC. This comes after several calls from other people including members and deacons of Harvest Bible Chapel, for them to . Letter Bible the T. 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